Kees Meeuws Interview

Ex Rugby Union Prop and current assistant coach to the Highlanders, Kees Meeuws talks to 51 Thoughts about memorable games, scrums, and where he thinks Rugby Union is going nowadays.

1.      How did you get through the development systems to play in the Super 12?

I’m from Auckland originally, I grew up there and went to Kelston boys. I came through all the age grades for Auckland Rugby, right from Under 13s to the Colts. I played NPC for Auckland, and I went on the New Zealand Colts tour to Argentina. From there I got a call in 1995 from Gordon Hunter to see if I was interested in playing Super Rugby, seeing as I was sitting behind the All Blacks front row Craig Dowd, Sean Fitzpatrick, and Olo Brown and you have Kevin Nepia and John Akurangi. I was fifth cab off the rank, and I thought I didn’t want to wait, I’d rather go down to Otago and get a couple of hidings for a few years, learn my trade and start dishing some out, and that’s what I did.

2.      What was it like to debut for the Highlanders?

Yeah it was good, I got down here in ’96 but I had compartment Syndrome, so I couldn’t play for the Highlanders in ’96. I had to have an operation in July of ’96, by the time they discovered what it was. I got the operation done, and by then the season was kind of over. So I didn’t really debut until ’97 for the Highlanders, even though I was in the squad the year before, I never played. From our debut, we had Anton Oliver, Carl Hoeft and myself started developing a front row unit we starting scrumming a few teams, our team wasn’t the best because we were a bunch of young guys, but we started developing the start of a good pack. In ’98 we started dominating teams. That’s when we really got two guys in to the All Blacks, Anton and Carl both made the All Blacks that year and I came on in the last game in the All Blacks season.

3.      Was it hard to stay at the top of your game?

I knew I had to work harder than most others, and you know just because you become an All Black, it doesn’t mean that the position becomes yours. You’ve got all those next guys coming along trying to take your jersey. So I tried to play the best I could every game and do extra so that I could stand out and keep getting reselected.

4.      How hard was it to keep your position in the All Blacks?

Well if you look at the era that I came through in, there were some quality players around and they were all pretty full on good players, and you really had to fight for your spot. You never gave anyone in opportunity, Different form today where rotation is part off rugby for longevity, guys today who are happy to be rotated. When I played you never gave anyone an opportunity because it could be your last game.

5.      What do you think of the new scrum rules?

I love it. I wish they were back in my time. Because that’s what I started off with, before this pause, touch, engage happened you know it was all power scrumming, you were all in there, and once the ball was in you could all have a go, the tight head called the hit, so it was all power scrumming, and when they starting depowering the scrum it kind of took it a step backwards you had guys who weren’t great  front rowers being able to survive because they could get down low and get their position on the hit and survive the game, where as now you see a lot of guys getting pushed around because they aren’t as strong as they thought they were.

6.      In terms of a scrum, does collapsing put a lot of pressure on your neck and head?

I think on the hit, it does. When we used to have the hit there was a lot of risk to being injured, because if you missed the hit you went straight to the ground. From a set up position, your getting thrown in to a scrum, and then that force is throwing you in to the ground. Where as with the set up now you’ve got the bind, you’ve braced yourself, you’ve got your head in to position, and you’re folding in to the scrum. It’s not as a big of a hit, it’s solid and you can’t really push until that ball is put in, so you’re generating a static scrum which is a lot safer. So you’re going to see a lot less scrums going down. If you do see a scrum go down it’ll be because of foot slipping or a guy bailing out because he’s under pressure.

7.      Looking at the All Blacks vs England series that has just finished, would you say the English scrum is a lot stronger then when you versed it?

No mate, because there were some big guys who were very proud of their scrum back in my early days. You know there are a lot of talented players from the ’99 World Cup that came through in 2003 when they won it. So you know they were very good at scrum time and they were proud of their scrum. We got to play the world cup winning team again the year after with myself, Kevin Mealamu and Carl Hayman, we had a really good year that year scrum wise, we competed against them they were the bench mark. I do think that this team that played in New Zealand is still very young and very serious but as a pack they are still growing and by the time they get to the world come they are going to be a formidable force.

8.      How hard is it to set up for a line out?

Oh mate, it depends on who you’re playing and how difficult your moves are too. Everyone blames the hooker when it comes to the ball not being won at the line up, but you’ve got to look at the whole unit. Have they jumped in the right place? Or are they jumping in early because of pressure from the opposition? A lot of things and you know that English side in that first game they were perfect in that asset of the game, they read the All Blacks and they put them under pressure. They constantly put them under pressure in the air. So I think in the second test the All Blacks were perfect in the game they had gone away and they didn’t like their game, they needed to pick themselves up and get better. It was a lot more of a crisp performance from the All Blacks. In the end it all really depends on how difficult the calls are and when you get a guys like Victor Matlock who’s just the line out guru and who is just phenomenal, so explosive at getting in the air that he always wins his ball.

9.      When you used to play did you see the ball being thrown in straight or did you lock up quickly?

Over the years it’s being analyzed a lot more, theres a lot more t.v cameras and angles that they can see from now, now the touchies are really keeping an eye on it where as in my days you could sometimes get away with the odd throw down your line and stuff like that, because they weren’t really watching it like they are now. We did a lot more work of the ball as well, we were allowed to stand on peoples feet and hold them down where as today you have that meter gap where you can’t really do that now.

9a. Because back in your day you could get away with the old 1 2 combination couldn’t you ?

In the old day you used to be able to get away with them, but theres too many cameras now so it’s not worth the risk you could cost your team the win, you can still get your retaliation in another way and that’s by putting shoulders on bodies, and clearing people out of the way. You can’t put the old rock climbing technique up some-ones back in today’s game.

10.   What was it like coming back from France in to the ITM Cup? Did you notice any differences?

It was a lot faster then what I played over in Europe, the Super Rugby rules were a step faster. But I really enjoyed coming back to the ITM Cup, when I came back it was a good competition. It had some really good players in it, it was similar to what I came back from in Europe. But in Europe it’s a lot more forward orientated, theres a lot more scrums, and taking pride in how well your Set piece is going.

11.   How important do you think having a good referee in rugby is?

The referee can make the game really enjoyable or he can actually ruin it, we’re quite lucky, that we’ve got a few good referees in New Zealand, but it’s always the new guys that are coming in on the scene, still learning the game, learning how to read teams, and get along with teams that can change a game and make it really difficult.

12.   Who was a referee you enjoyed playing under in your time?

I liked Colin Hawke in his day even though he cost us a couple of games he was very good, old Bryce Lawrence was a good referee, and there was a few good South African ones that all the boys got along with, we had a few good referees in New Zealand, they were the best for a reason.

13.   How difficult was the ’99 world cup semi final to play against the French at Twickenham?

I came off the bench, but watching it was very difficult because we had them and at half time we took our foot of the pedal and we started chasing the game, things didn’t go our way. When we started chasing the game, and when we chased the game we started playing worse. The French just grew an arm and a leg, it wasn’t flash coming on in that last 25 minutes trying to chase and game and win it. Everything you tried just wasn’t coming off, absolutely devastating that we lost that game but hey it’s one of those things. We lost it and gave it to them.

14.   In 2003 did you guys feel like that you were in that game or was Australia too good?

I think Australia came in with a very clever game plan by playing two loosies and really attacking the break down, where Richie (McCaw) was so dominant and we were dominant, I think I got on for about 20 minutes and I pulled my calf so I had to come off. It’s one of those things where you trying your best to win it but it just doesn’t happen.

15.   How much of an impact on your career did injuries have?

Oh like every player I had my fair share of injuries, but mine were ether quite long term close to the time. It’s just a part of being a rugby player. I always looked after myself whenever I got a niggle I always got it treated, so that I could get back in there in the shortest time possible. I managed myself really well. I played a lot of rugby but I also missed a lot of rugby due to either hamstring or calf strains.

16.   How did you recover after a game?

When I was younger I used to go pig hunting on the Sunday, got to go for a walk around the hills but once I was living in Auckland I used to go for a swim and stretch, and do pilates, it was always about just maintaining yourself, get in there and try and stretch the body out.

17.   What’s your favourite footballing memory?

I’ve got too many to say but I think my favourite would be 2003 playing Wales in Hamilton, it was one of those games that had gone right, people talk about their perfect game and for me everything goal in that game, everything came and for me it was just one of those games where everything went to plan, personally and as a team.

18.   Who was one of the best players you have played against?

I played against lots and lots, all the stars, Jonah Lomu was good to play with him in your team and against him. Tana Umaga was good to play against. But for me I used to love playing the South Africans, they were big and they were strong and they just loved the physically. So Os de Raunt and Ollie Le Roux and all those guys from that era. I used to love playing them because you knew you were always in for a hard battle, especially at scrum time.